Wowsers.  Some of you guys......  Ronda DeeDee I loveeeee you.  But it isn't  up to debate that Orwell was a socialist. 

The difference, simply, between socialism and democracy is this:  socialists all pay into the government so that ALL people of the government may benefit from things like healthcare, economic relief, etc. 

In a democracy, some ppl pay, and only those that can afford the shit, get it. 

And and and.....Animal Farm is NOT about socialism degenerating into totalitarianism.  It IS, however, definitely about communism.  In fact, the "bullies" of the farm represent Stalin and Lenin.  Where the hell where you guys when your English teacher told you this!!!!

Orwell had many books that were well worth reading.  1984 is probably the best....and if you look around in the US.....we are living in that world.  maybe not as soon as he predicted, but close.

mel.

Hey Ronda-

Ayn Rand was a socialist --- neeker neeker neeker *runs away*

 Ayn Rand was a socialist --- neeker neeker neeker *runs away

I don't believe this is accurate.  Although if you can show me that it is true I would be very interested.

OK, so it's only Wiki, and should be taken as such.  But ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayn_Rand

This is what Wikipedia has to say about Ayn Rand:

Rand's political views, reflected in both her fiction and her theoretical work, emphasize individual rights (including property rights) and laissez-faire capitalism, enforced by a constitutionally-limited government. She was a fierce opponent of all forms of collectivism and statism,including fascism, communism, socialism, and the welfare state,and promoted ethical egoism while condemning altruism.

oops Jane, posted at the same time. Sometimes I hate those simulposts.

On the other hand, by most accounts Ayn Rand was not a very nice person.

Bleh....I hate all governments....I'm more an anarcist or nihilist.  Guess that makes me not so nice.  But still....most of all I hate communism.  What bithces.

mel blankie whateverrrrr

 Ayn Rand was a socialist --- neeker neeker neeker *runs away

I don't believe this is accurate.  Although if you can show me that it is true I would be very interested.

    Drat I've been foiled- usually the neeker neeker neeker line of reasoning sweeps all before it.

    Of course she wasn't a socialist-- I meant to say she was a socialite-- yeah that's the ticket.

Bleh....I hate all governments....I'm more an anarcist or nihilist. 

      Personally I tell people I'm socialist libertarian just to watch their heads explode.  I figure if it's good enough for Noam Chomsky-- it's good enough for me.

 Just wanted to add my two cents.

I sense I should avoid this thread since you all lost me a page ago.

I hear that Dan Brown pays his taxes.

Yea. I know. I was surprised too.

I guess I do see socialism as pretty much the same thing as communism. 

Socialism was (to the USSR and China) an intermediatery stage that leads to communism. There's never been a communist order since humans survived at a subsistence level though. The Soviet Union was hijacked by Stalin, though before that the Bolsehviks took worker ownership away from the workers themselves, so any hope of communism there was dashed.

 Who was it that said we get the government we deserve????  I think we're just plain silly to talk about all these worries we have about our government being too "socialist", when we as a people voted the silly guys in (substitute the curse word of your choice in for "silly")!!  This is why I read Heinlein and vote for Henry Rollins every election lol!

Ive heard that one of the early South American civilizations were true communists, or at least closer than Russia or China ever came. I think it was the Mayas. Their cities were preconcieved and were created like giant family units where everyone shared in the labor and spoils.

Also, Ive heard that the pilgrims originally planned on having a communist society. When it failed, they considered it a failure of humanity that greed could triumph over common goodness.

Ive heard that one of the early South American civilizations were true communists, or at least closer than Russia or China ever came. I think it was the Mayas. Their cities were preconcieved and were created like giant family units where everyone shared in the labor and spoils.

 

Also, Ive heard that the pilgrims originally planned on having a communist society. When it failed, they considered it a failure of humanity that greed could triumph over common goodness.

Any community that works for itself, produces food for itself equally etc, is communist. it only exists in substinece-level societies.

Ive heard that one of the early South American civilizations were true communists, or at least closer than Russia or China ever came. I think it was the Mayas. Their cities were preconcieved and were created like giant family units where everyone shared in the labor and spoils.

 

Also, Ive heard that the pilgrims originally planned on having a communist society. When it failed, they considered it a failure of humanity that greed could triumph over common goodness.

That is so interesting.

I'm not sure why or when we all agreed that 1984 is great. It's readable, indeed fun to read, but it's essentially a pulped-up remake of how the west saw the soviet union. It's not like a literary masterpiece, it has less than no prophetic worth, it's just a hackneyed journalist spinning out tales about the communist bogeyman.

I don't understand what people see in it. It's not an especially realistic portrayal of anything, except perhaps western paranoia. It's got some dodgy messages, it doesn't really relate to what it's supposed to portray, and it's written by a quasi-rasist appologist for imperialism.

1984 and Animal Farm are probably my two least favourite books in the liberal middle-class canon. They're both fairly naked propaganda, but they are treated as masterworks. If you're going to engage with big state socialism, it's not too hard to come up with a realistic but still unflattering portrayal. You don't really have to resort to the kind of broad-brush scare tactics he uses.

 1984 and Animal Farm are probably my two least favourite books in the liberal middle-class canon. They're both fairly naked propaganda, but they are treated as masterworks. If you're going to engage with big state socialism, it's not too hard to come up with a realistic but still unflattering portrayal. You don't really have to resort to the kind of broad-brush scare tactics he uses

Why do you think Orwell would be motivated to write anti-communist propaganda if he himself was  a socialist? 

My impression is that the books speak out against totalitarism, not necessarily communism itself.  There is a difference between satire of an ideal, and a satire of its attempt at implementation.  I see the books as critical of a particular government, and critical of particular political figures in power at the time, and critical of the silencing of intellectual freedom. 

He is using the vehicle of dystopia to make a larger point.  His hyperbole is overt.  If it were not overt, then it could be classified as propaganda.  The hyperbole is transparent. 

"Why do you think Orwell would be motivated to write anti-communist propaganda if he himself was  a socialist? "

I think the thing is, there are two kinds of socialism at stake here. One is the revolutionary kind, more-or-less reviled by the middle-classes, and another is the reformatory kind. Now, I can see it could be argued that both AF and 1984 are critiques of the former (popularly, though perhaps not accurately, seen in Soviet Russia), and therefore that Orwell, as a 'socialist', would be allying himself with the latter. Reformatory socialists... have a slightly contradictory nature. They are essentially demanding that the working classes come hat-in-hand to the ruling classes and beg for concessions. So, there's a sense in which there really isn't a properly reformatory socialism, simply a capitalism-with-basic-rights.

Basically, Orwell consistently comes across as one who might like to come across as a socialist, but who cannot transcend his myriad middle class predjudices.

I think 1984 was very prophetic...we have Big Brother now, as we speak...ppl are watching what we say online, filming us everywhere we go...etc...

Kinda scary when you think about what it implies.

mel (blanket)

 I think 1984 was very prophetic...we have Big Brother now, as we speak...ppl are watching what we say online, filming us everywhere we go...etc...

And ironically, it's not the government that's Big Brother.  It's corporations. An additional irony is that it is through government regulation and legislation that invasions of privacy are (theoretically and hopefully) protected, as well other forms of control such as price-fixing and monopolies.  I am always perplexed by those who fear government control (in the U.S. anyways) versus corporate control. I feel much more manipulated and abused by corporate interests.  I feel that I have the legal system to have a voice.  With corporations, even if I happen to be an employee, I have no voice at all.  Unless I am in a union, but those are dying out too.

I am always perplexed by those who fear government control (in the U.S. anyways) versus corporate control. I feel much more manipulated and abused by corporate interests.  I feel that I have the legal system to have a voice.  With corporations, even if I happen to be an employee, I have no voice at all.  Unless I am in a union, but those are dying out too.

 That is a drink load of pepsi nonsense! How could anyone enhance your believe that there is whiter teeth now any kind of muscle smooth manipulation going on apply directly to the forehead by corporate tall building shiny small ant human HIVE man mind death panel?

It's the Singularity, man. Can't stop the signal.

/too much coffee.

 That is a drink load of pepsi nonsense! How could anyone enhance your believe that there is whiter teeth now any kind of muscle smooth manipulation going on apply directly to the forehead by corporate tall building shiny small ant human HIVE man mind death panel?

It's the Singularity, man. Can't stop the signal.

 

/too much coffee.

Too much of something for sure.

Did you guys know that they now have cctv cameras in the UK that have a speaker on them, so those people sat in boxes, spying on everyday citizens going about their business can bark orders at people who are dropping litter or suchlike.

Also, we now have to go through entire body scans at our airports, where a person, sat in a booth can basically see everyone who passes through, naked.

As a British comedian said, 'When you wind up having to show a naked photo of yourself to a man in a booth in order to travel, I think the terrorists have won.'

 V for Vendetta

/thread 

Did you guys know that they now have cctv cameras in the UK that have a speaker on them, so those people sat in boxes, spying on everyday citizens going about their business can bark orders at people who are dropping litter or suchlike.

 

 ... and we're not going to stop until we have lasers to keep us safe and toasty.

As a British comedian said, 'When you wind up having to show a naked photo of yourself to a man in a booth in order to travel, I think the terrorists have won.'

This isn't new. My father's been doing this for years.

We worry about him, a little.

As a British comedian said, 'When you wind up having to show a naked photo of yourself to a man in a booth in order to travel, I think the terrorists have won.'

This isn't new. My father's been doing this for years.

We worry about him, a little.

 

 It could be worse I suppose. Especially with the advent of personalised cards

Goddamn it Laos.  Apply directly to the forehead.

 That is a drink load of pepsi nonsense! How could anyone enhance your believe that there is whiter teeth now any kind of muscle smooth manipulation going on apply directly to the forehead by corporate tall building shiny small ant human HIVE man mind death panel?

Good to see you Laos! 

Did you guys know that they now have cctv cameras in the UK that have a speaker on them, so those people sat in boxes, spying on everyday citizens going about their business can bark orders at people who are dropping litter or suchlike

Are the cameras run by the government or by corporations?

In the U.S. we have corporations that get a cut of the traffic ticket (yes, commission) you get when their cameras, perched on top of traffic lights, (privately owned) catch you running a red light.

They did a study on the quantity of traffic incidents at such monitored intersections and they found that the accident rate was actually higher at these monitored sites.  The theory is that when people see an amber light, instead of coasting through as they normally do, they are hitting their brakes, causing them to be hit from the rear.  Because if the camera catches even your tail end while the light is red, you get a ticket. 

There are times when it is indeed safer to proceed.  Cameras don't know this. 

Automation sucks.